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sean mcdaniel

no one's blocking your progress, JM. could it be that there's either a glut of art galleries in the east end for too small of a market? as for the residential vs. office disparity in downtown (nyc or pgh), where exactly do you want people to work? what is a happy medium? 50/50? who exactly are the forces of evil at work here? just because you opened a business here didn't mean that people would support it. (by the way, despite your repugnant attitude and manners, your gallery is a great place. you really should stop munching a bunch of fritos when customers are around.)

sam and others protest the use of subsidies to build downtown residences. you're against the building of arenas and ballparks, whatever the source of funding, within city limits. so where's the resolution? at least the cohort that sam belongs to is consistent...no subsidies for anything. you, however, agree with subsidies for residential purposes. (just so you know, i'm for them whether the purpose is stadiums, housing, roads...within reason...and i know that can be a tough call)


by the way, let's say that Heinz Field got built in burgettstown instead...how do the carless city residents get there if they want to see the steelers/panthers play or catch bon jovi - those damn jersey boys? do you recommend a mass transit line costing billions, even though it only gets used about 20 days a year? or do you assume that most of the people at steelers games aren't city residents, and that the cretins from the suburbs constitute 100 percent of the people who attend football games.

hell, why not move the new yankee stadium to the meadowlands especially since the old stadium grounds will become a park — a double waste of valuable residential space ? after all, even the bronx is enjoying a rebirth as one of the last places you can buy a two-bathroom home for less than $650,000 in the city limits. and really, couldn't the area around shea be put to better use?

Sam M

Sheel,

Welcome!

And Sean,

I might be wrong, but I think that when JM talks about people getting in the way, he means people cutting exclusive deals with the city. That is, I don't care what John wants to do with a property or how much he is willing to pay for it. Once the Piatts get the city to sign off on the exclusive arrangement, everyopne else can go to hell.

This is a serious problem with the whole "directed" development idea.

One eliminated how?

By auctioning off the city-owned properties.

(OK. So technically they are probably not owned by "the city." But that, I think, is what all right-thinking people refer to as "horse shit.")

Sam M

Oh, and Sheel, thanks a million times over for this:

"The way to attract people like me isn't to build a hard rock cafe... I could care less about that. What we care about is jobs."

This seems so obvious. But it seems like the people in charge don't give it a moment's thought. If there are really good jobs in Death Valley, young people will move to Death Valley. If there are really good jobs in Minnesota, young people will move to Minnesota. If there are really good jobs in hell--with the lid taken off or not--people will move there and work.

And when they get a whole bunch of money to spend someone will open a coffee shop--and other places designed to separate these people from their money.

Quiz: Did Charlotte attract use coffee shops to attract bankers? Or the opposite?

Excellent.

Quiz # 2: Say I put a sign on a coffee shop that says, "Customers wanted: Coffee Available at $1 a cup." And I put a sign on a business that said, "Workers Wanted: $50,000 a year."

Which one would draw more interest? Which one would be more likely to convince someone to move here from, say, Toledo?

Excellent.

Now if only we could get a few more readers here...

sean mcdaniel

yeah,sam, you really don't get enough traffic here.

actually, i think JM has stated that it's okay to cut a deal to get people to move into the city...he doesn't like deals for stadiums and parking lots (actually he doesn't like stadiums or parking lots, period.)

as for charlotte, i'm going to venture that they offered all those banks some really sweet deals on tax abatements, more lenient incorporation laws than say pittsburgh or nyc and even subsidies. if i'm wrong, let me know. i'll accept the truth...if someone is willing to deliver it.

as for the Hard Rock Cafe...it's not their to attract people to the city...it's there to attract people to station square. just as ross park mall isn't a ploy to get people to move to the north hills.

as for those Hard Rock lures, one of the reasons American Eagle is moving to the SouthSide Works is that so many of its employees are under 30...and from places other than pittsburgh...and want to be within walking distance of places they'll eat, drink and be merry...say like a pre-fab Irish Pub...or Bar Louie...or Hard Rock Cafe. and AEO really plans to boost its staff big time for the move to the SSW.

So, all that touristy stuff must be reeling in a few fish. seriously, what's the best word of mouth for south side than a couple 100 under 30 something's telling their friends that it's a cool, affordable place (affordable by nyc, philadelphia, boston, dc, seattle, san francisco, LA, san diego standards. and i think everyone agrees that despite its problems pittsburgh a cooler place than cleveland, indianapolis, des moines, cincinnati, and other cities our size. again, i'd like to see us in the asheville/austin league. that's our niche, not nyc or sf.)

Sheel

I think in the evolution of cities in the past couple of decades there came a time when vacancy rates in the CBD's started to dictate that it would be better to use some buildings as residential rather than commercial... You could say that it is those CBD's that aren't as successful commercially that are now getting into residential, because historically very few residents ever lived downtown in US cities. Commercial rents are just higher than residential, and leases are much longer and easy maintain, so a landlord would be out of his mind to switch to residential if the market could support more commercial.

And maybe New York is trying to be a lot like Pittsburgh, with $1.1 BILLION of public dollars going to the new Mets and Yankees stadiums...
story

Plus the failed plan of using the new Jets stadium to revitalize part of manhattan using public funding -
http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/realestate/urbandev/features/9307/
Ditto with the Brooklyn Nets arena

I'm not down with the cutting exclusive deals either, though I can see both sides of the coin. John were you referring to Piatt as the guy from New Jersey?

Auctioning off the city properties would be great - it'll be interesting to see what the "fair market value" that Piatt buys at is.

I wish we could launch some sort of campaign against the north shore connector and this gambling law... I don't mind the idea of casinos so much, just the way that PA and Fast Eddie have created the laws... It irritates me to no end.

John Morris

Sam, Sean,

I want everyone to get out of the way of private free market deveopment which thanks to people like sean does not exist. I do however at least want the discussion to include all the hidden subsidies and free stuff that underpins the suburbs.

And yes, why don't we talk about all the property the city owns and what exactly is the URA?

Sheel

I have a friend who works for AEO and the employees REALLY can't wait for the move... SSW is interesting though... it isn't affordable to live in that complex, even by outsider standards. I have a friend paying over $1500/month in rent... When I looked into opening a business there, rent was something like $45/sqft (before you have a heart attack, thats yearly)... which is more than Walnut Street in Shadyside. That's why you don't find any truly local establishments there (well, you don't find any that haven't filed for bankruptcy in the past 6 months).

The south side is like its own city with plenty to offer for anyone at any age, particularly young people, whether you are into bars, clubs, restaurants, movies, concerts, etc.

I LIKE the fact that they have a full-fledged Giant Eagle... In fact, with the gentrification (doesn't have to always be a bad word!) of the south side, I bet that it someday turns into a Market District like the one in Shadyside (which I LOVE... I'd love to see Whole Foods weekly receipts for this whole year to see the impact on it)... Plus I bet a lowering in prices for Market district is in store once trader joes opens up.

sean mcdaniel

how in the hell did i eliminate the free market?

do i tell JM how much to charge for art in his gallery?

did i outlaw smoking in bars?

did i start the state store system?

did i kill john galt?

do i think that it's fine for area universities and hospitals to pay its execs millions and contribute little to the local tax base?

do i bemoan the issue of oil companies making tons of money right now (and just about always)?

do i claim that the government should plan every last detail of growth — urban, suburban, economic or otherwise?

do i hope that kevin mcclatchy holds on to the pirates forever?

about the only thing i harp on is that all this seems to be an either/or discussion for the most part. as i said, i'm not for a north shore T connection using govt money...but i did support the building of PNC and Heinz Field...whatever is happening on the n. shore these days (and granted, it ain't much...yet...hopefully) is the result of those places. and it's 300 percent more than any growth Three Rivers generated (which was Firewaters).

I'm one of the few people who chimes in here who thinks that wisely used subsidies can help...and that suburbs can complement and enrich the city (and vice versa). most of the voices on these subjects are stuck on one note and you guys can't even get in tune.

as i said before, a new pittsburgh isn't going to grow like a sea monkey. it takes more than adding water (besides, there's plenty enough of that around already and no one seems to know how to capitalize on that)

sean mcdaniel

sheel,

the SSW developer never intended the place to be for local merchants. his goal was to bring in national chains (aside from AEO) that didn't have a local presence.

as for the loft rents and surrounding apts, his goal was the under 35 type making $65,000 or more a year.

i agree that everyone at AEO seems eager to get to SSW. hell, that industrial park in Warrandale is nice as far as the greenery. but unless you jump in your car to eat at a fast food place on rt. 19, you're stuck in the building all day (like workers in all the other places there).

so, it seems that a subsidized development has done exactly what it was intended to do...lure new business to the city...and AEO is a major player. they don't just want to be on par with the gap or banana republic...they want to rise to the level or HP, GE and Apple.

i know that some will say, oh great, one place in two years...but christ almighty, you have to start somewhere.

John Morris

sean,

Once you advocate using force fror your own pet project you have stepped out of civilised existence.

Anyway reading these blogs can give people some idea of the number of buzy bodies who want to micromanage everything in the city. I think that this might have something to do with why these are going to be $300,000 places. I would gues that a nice chunk of that is just the cost of aproavals and regulation.

Sheel. I am pretty bullish on your investment in India.

John Morris

Sheel,

Of course i am against the dirty deals in NY. Regarding your investment in India. I am not an expert but I have had a very nice investment there in mutual funds since the late 1990's. It wasn't large and I sold a lot so that I could invest in Pittsburgh ( which I must admit i cannot fully recomend )

India is trying to wake up from a socialist nightmare and is still a regulatory nightmare. But, at least on the whole you are perhaps dealing with people who want jobs and want some investment. Pittsburgh is a region that does desperatly need that but at the same time creates all kinds of trouble for people who do come in.

The fact is that returns in India are likely worth the risk and trouble. Here it is largely a high trouble and low return thing. As you said the taxes are bad and then depending on some fashion, someone is likely to try to take your property, because there is likely going to have to be a Soccer Stadium.


sean mcdaniel

yep, india is great...college graduates fight for telemarketing jobs paying $7 an hour, work 60 hours a week and live at home with their parents until they're 35...oh hell, wait that's america (and the free market) i'm talking about.

come on guys, people are clamoring for a raise in minimum wage here for fast food jobs and worse (and just who are we to tell JM that he is REQUIRED to pay an assistant $7 an hour? if he would hire one)...what do you think those jobs pay in India? in the south they had a term for the northerners who profitted in dixie after the civil war...are investors in india the new carpetbaggers? and just how many americans do you see flocking to mumbai for that great job market? seems like the flow always ends up heading towards the US.

do you really think AOL and other companies base their call centers there for altruistic reasons? do you really think nike's interested in raising the standard of living in india? do you? then you probably think it's a good idea to pay illegal immigrants $50 a day to pick the lettuce in your salad. what the hell, why not invest in Dole, which sprays its central american workers with pesticides while they pluck bananas off trees?

if you want to profit off the less fortunate, iraq is a mother lode...buy halliburton and KBR...or ExxonMobil or Chevron...that money in your (or my) mutual fund is plenty dirty. and if anyone can tell me about a fund that doesn't profit from the disadvantaged or the environment or a crisis or tragedy (but i better be able to retire in 10 years becuase my current fund is booming thanks to all the world chaos!), please tell me...and i'll sign up for it. i used to think that the Janus fund was ironically funny...i was putting my money into a fund named after a two-faced god.

and those $300,000 urban condos and suburban mcmansions are going to carry that price tag because that's where the money is...did you ever wonder why hyundai focuses on high end cars these days — and not just "affordable" cars anymore? and why doesn't apple make a computer that costs $400? (please, the mac mini doesn't count).

JM: someone's a busybody if they support urban athletic venues...but not if they oppose suburban growth/sprawl. interesing point of view, i must say.

JM: it's admirable that the work in your gallery sells for relatively reasonable prices ($300-$400 for a varnished blob of tar on canvas but still much higher than my $19.95 Velvet Elvis. and yes, i liked that tar work). but if one of your artists gets hot...will you keep those prices "low" in the face of increased customer demand and pressure from the artist to make more? and would you turn down a government incentive to renovate your building or lower your taxes as a new business?

are subsidies only wrong if millionaire developers receive them to build baseball fields (notice i didn't mention parking lots. i'm agin them too, feller.)?

sam, i know. we've discussed the issue of "no one leads a pure life" to the point of verbal fisticuffs. there's a conflict of morals everywhere. but as you know, i don't pretend to say that one way or another is the right way to go. and i have a low tolerance for those who purport to know the answers, yet accept the same "gimmes" that they say others should be denied. and no that's not a slam against you!

sean mcdaniel

hey, i screwed up the numbers on that indian wage stuff. take a look at this....

During Infosys' earnings call the previous week, Infosys CEO Nandan Nilekani addressed the twin topics of wage inflation and employee attrition, saying that the company will increase starting salaries from $5,122 to $5,763, a 12.5 percent increase, on average. (the

that's from an online news source called e-week, dated July 20,2006...looks like that indian high tech worker makes about $14.50 a day (based on an american style 40 hour week, 50 weeks a year) or an amazing $1.85 an hour! that's not much to buy your daily nan. and keep in mind, that's not an increase in the increase of the starting salary...it is the starting salary ( i hope that made sense).

you can look it up ... just google "indian average wages" and wait for the hits that talk about india pricing itself out of the job market. in fact, according to a BBC report from nov. 2005, workers in china make more than their indian counterparts in engineering, accountanting and other skilled positions that require a higher level of education.

so if you really want to see more people working in pittsburgh, here's a modest proposal...ban all labor unions (including sports)...repeal all minimun wage laws...legislate against employer paid health care ... and let the free market rip ... and sam's twins will be working at the nike shoe factory in hazelwood by time they reach first grade (oh yeah what family can afford to lose the income by sending kids to school?).

so everyone please reconsider those investment in the indian mutual funds...looks like dafur could be the next new job growth center. from what i hear, those lean, hungry types make the best workers and are said to be dirt cheap to hire.

John Morris

sean,

From, what I can tell you work for Pitt, a government funded employer and you told me you don't live in Pittsburgh. I don't have a government job and no i am losing money and can't afford to pay anyone much.

As far as wages in India- first of all, using dollar terms is just trying to confuse the subject. The lifestyle offered by Infosys for those jobs is pretty good and wages are exploding in the field. Job turnover is high since all the greedy exploitive employers have to bid against each other for people. And now , I would imagine that any corporate type with a back office that reads this blog has got to be looking even closer at India. This should help parking at the stadiums.

India is also, I think getting back a very high % of the students who come here to go to school and moving very rapidly up the knowledge chain. If they keep it up this cycle of horrid exploitation is result in an Indian Superpower. Perhaps a horror like Hong Kong?


John Morris

Sean,

And for the record, I think that Andrew Carnegie was a great man. I know that's the worst thing that anyone can say here.

sean mcdaniel

hmmm....your powers of observation/perception fail you, JM...

i am 100 percent self-employed. i can send you my estimated tax forms and health insurance bills if you'd like to see them. and i don't do anyone work for government agencies.

sam is the pitt guy.i only graduated from the place. and please don't bitch at him about the university being govt. funded.

you're right. my hometown is about 2 miles from the city limits, depending which direction i travel. which basically means i'm closer to downtown than most people in squirrel hill. like i said, you pay taxes to sustain a meddling city government...i put money in the hands of business owners with what i spend around town. let's ask some of the places i patronize if they'd rather have you pay tax to prop up city council's lifestyle and city workers who want to cheat the time clock...or see me drop $40-$80 on dinner.

as for india, funny how all those business news services are warning of the impending decline of the indian job market. just what sources of info do you believe?

as for your logic here:

"As far as wages in India- first of all, using dollar terms is just trying to confuse the subject. The lifestyle offered by Infosys for those jobs is pretty good and wages are exploding in the field. Job turnover is high since all the greedy exploitive employers have to bid against each other for people."

First of all it's all relative, according to you. Which means you shouldn't complain about Pittsburgh. After all, you could never afford rent in Manhattan for the amount of space you have here (two adjoining storefronts, plus living quarters above). So your lifestyle here, even on less money, is good. and even though you're losing money here, you'll be able to do so longer here. By now you'd be taking a sink bath at the port authority terminal if you were in NYC.

Now, i happen to think employers having to bid against each other is a good thing...for employees...sounds like its the right market for them. I could be wrong, but when employers don't have to compete for qualified people, job seekers suffer. I think it's a little notion called supply and demand and has something to do with the free market.

just so you know how good the indian job market is...here's another take on it from the july 6 NY times:

But the increasingly common, business-centric view of India suppresses more facts than it reveals. Recent accounts of the alleged rise of India barely mention the fact that the country's $728 per capita gross domestic product is just slightly higher than that of sub-Saharan Africa and that, as the 2005 United Nations Human Development Report puts it, even if it sustains its current high growth rates, India will not catch up with high-income countries until 2106.

Nor is India rising very fast on the report's Human Development index, where it ranks 127, just two rungs above Myanmar and more than 70 below Cuba and Mexico. Despite a recent reduction in poverty levels, nearly 380 million Indians still live on less than a dollar a day.

Malnutrition affects half of all children in India, and there is little sign that they are being helped by the country's market reforms, which have focused on creating private wealth rather than expanding access to health care and education. Despite the country's growing economy, 2.5 million Indian children die annually, accounting for one out of every five child deaths worldwide; and facilities for primary education have collapsed in large parts of the country (the official literacy rate of 61 percent includes many who can barely write their names). In the countryside, where 70 percent of India's population lives, the government has reported that about 100,000 farmers committed suicide between 1993 and 2003.

hey, sounds like my kind of economic wet dream!

You know, when you fall below mexico, cuba and sub-saharan africa on key economic and lifestyle indicators, it's kind of like finishing behind mississippi in an IQ test.

and one thing i didn't lift from the article...the world's fifth richest man is an indian entrepreneur...who lives in britain...now leg me get something straight here...i'm scum if i live in the suburbs and spend hundreds of dollars in the city every week...but i'm a savvy investor if i spend the same amount of money in an indian investment and never set foot in the country. does that seem about right?

my point is this...if you don't practice what you preach, shut up.

and screw all those restaurants and theaters and bars and other businesses i support within the city limits (my barber and tailor, too). i'm investing that money in those high living infosys employees.

John Morris

Sean

Yes, India was a very, very poor country and still has many problems it is however starting to make some great moves to fix them. The businesses investing India inherited the poverty. I don't suppose you that you would criticize the fine socialist goverment's of India and thier red tape for helping to create it. Anyway, unlike Pittsburgh I think it is really welcoming investment.

I think the guy in England controls one of the world's largest steel companies. He's bigger than U.S. Steel.

sean mcdaniel

as i asked earlier...is it okay to invest and benefit in a country but not live there? isn't that what suburbanites do in relation to the city?

and john M: what kind of socialist pays all his own taxes and health care? a true socialist would work for the goverment or a school system or university or belong to a union, at the very least. and i do feel that we have an obligation to help the less fortunate...believe it or not, some are trying and doing the best they can, to the best of their abilities. be thankful that your skills don't end with knowing how to run a floor buffer.

JM, i have to say, you really have become a real pittsburgher. in the few short years you've been here, you developed the attitude that all you have to do to get a paychck is show up for work. forget about doing the job. (again, read the newspaper stories about those city workers who balked at the fingerprint time clock that would eliminate the buddy system of clocking in and out people who weren't there). all the silver platters are gone. unless there was a silver spoon jammed in your mouth at birth.

did you really think that you'd be an instant hit here? read the local papers (and just about any business magazine) to see how others like you (with good ideas) really struggled to succeed...or did you think that we were yokels whose horizons would be broadened by your narrow vision of enlightment?

i've been doing this self-employed thing for 6 years now...and i still bust my ass to get new clients...and i'll do some low end jobs if i think they'll lead to a bigger payoff...and sometimes just because because money is money. and the end of the year, the bottom line usually looks good.

unless you find yourself a patron, you might have to do something after gallery hours until the place catches on.

i've said this time and again...i really liked your place and the work you show and what you're trying to do...but you're not exactly a marketing genius if you continue to bash the locals and their mentality. this isn't new york...but if you insist, then think of the suburbs as our outer boroughs. seriously, you gotta go across a bridge to get to every other borough there, no matter how short it may be.

Sheel

First let me say that I'm an Indian American - born in the US, but I've been to India 15 times in my 24 years. The pace of change is amazing, and a little nauseating. There are, in fact, 2 indias... the one india you hear about on the news taking US jobs for a pittance, and the other India that even those living in Mumbai and Bangalore have no idea about.

I don't think you can complain about the working conditions in India at all - I have several cousins/family friends who work for Infosys, including one who at one time worked for Microsoft in Seattle... As a matter of fact, one of my cousins (an Infosys employee) recently moved to Pittsburgh to manage their contracts with PNC and Mellon... A fact of life is that labor should go where it is cheapest, and for the time being, India has the advantage, though there are signs that it is already losing some of that advantage. $6,000 is a SHITLOAD of money in India, especially considering that Infosys provides company housing and transportation on many of their campuses. To give you an example, you can easily eat a meal at a restaurant for 50 cents. A haircut also costs about 50 cents. When there I got a weekly 1-hour massage, for which I paid a dollar per day. Wage comparisons to the US dollar are not only irrelevant, but completely hurtful to any logical discussion. Yes, 3 billion people in the world live on less than $2/day, but what does that buy them in their respective countries?

And, if you truly want to help, check out the organization I work (volunteer for) www.kiva.org and please spread the word...

Sheel

corrections - I meant I paid a dollar per one-hour massage,

and when I said there is a 2nd india, it is the really low working class people that are servants in these big cities, especially Mumbai. It is impossible for anyone to maintain any sort of decent standard of living on what they make - figure $1000/year in an expensive real estate market.

John, you were better off selling those mutual funds - have you seen the sensex lately? I invested in real estate though, and (due to some corruption, not on my part), I will definately see great returns

sean mcdaniel

Sheel says:

"I invested in real estate though, and (due to some corruption, not on my part), I will definately see great returns"

gotta love that free market...it thrives on crookedness...sheel, you have to get into the slot machine business here. it's rife with corruption...you'll do well...if you can get elected to public office first.

as for those low working class people in mumbai, oh well, too bad they didn't try harder....or weren't born into the right family.

as for infosys...what happens when profits drop...and the benefits such as free housing and transportation are cut? or are those add-ons something they're forced to do because of the remnants of the socialist government and the mindset that your employer owes you something beyond a paycheck? (like a cigarette smoke free office)

finally, according to the news reports, the indian miracle is a mixed blessing for a privileged few...that reallys seems to be a fact...sure it's fine for your cousins...but not so hot for the people who might clean their homes...by the way, things are great in america too. my sister in law lives in a $400,000 home ...and she wonders how the hispanic guys who mow her lawn get by on what the neighborhood association council pays them. thank god her heart is in the right place.

well, kids, i guess today's lesson comes from the oliver stone movie wall street...greed is good.

ain't that america? or is it india? as long as you aren't corrupt...everything's hunky dorey. damn, sheel, you really should be investing in a thai brothels. i hear those 12 year old girls will give massages with happy endings for a buck or so.

gotta say, i'm totally amazed at sheel's post.

John Morris

Sean,

Did you ever think that he might know a little more about it since he is from there and goes back regulary? India is two countries and it has just started on a path to reform that has started to work.

To my knowledge at this point only a few parts of the Indian economy are really open and these have started to do really well. Do you have anything bad to say about the people who messed the place up or is the problem Infosys which has done so much good there?

John Morris

Sean,

While great progress has been made. India doesn't have anything remotely close to a free market. I think one of the reasons that the info tech/ BPO boom has taken off there is that it was an area the government couldn't control too well. India was very famous for having one of the world's most bueacratic economies- and that helped to create coruption.

Sheel,

Thanks for the tips. I think you might be right and also for the link

Sheel

On the earlier thing - I was just responding to this "looks like that indian high tech worker makes about $14.50 a day (based on an american style 40 hour week, 50 weeks a year) or an amazing $1.85 an hour! that's not much to buy your daily nan" by saying that, in fact $14.50 is plenty to buy your daily nan. Plus that's starting salary, which is pretty low, but it goes up considerably from there. It's not just Infosys, its Wipro, TCS, MICROSOFT, IBM, GE, Gillette, Mckinsey, Unilever, Citigroup, etc. These are the biggest employers of young people in India nowadays. It's unfortunate, but of the top 15 employers of top business school talent, only a few are actually Indian companies. However, that is probably also true in Spain, Singapore, Thailand etc... US Companies dominate the scene.

"Do you have anything bad to say about the people who messed the place up"

Well that would be the government... Specifically Indira Gandhi... Her father, Nehru came in at a tough time and implemented some beureocratic policies (called the "license raj") that were probably neccessary for a brand new country... Indira, however was one of the most corrupt politicians in history (also interesting to note that people talk about how Women have no power in India, but the 2nd prime minister in India's history was female, and several party leaders throughout Indias short history have been female)

Anyway, back to the power-hungry bitch that is Indira Gandhi -
Here's what I once wrote about her as part of an essay

Her initial campaign platform of “garibi hatao” was very admirable, but ultimately the Green Revolution had more to do with the transformation of India’s underclass than anything implemented by Indira. Indira’s authoritarian nature and statist economic policies led to a massive bureaucracy that India wasn’t able to shed for many years. The bureaucracy led to major inefficiency and corruption in the national economy and administration.

A true leader leads by example. It was abundantly clear that Indira was running a very corrupt and callous administration, yet by declaring a state of emergency she was able to escape the charges. This sent a message to countless Indians that corruption was okay, and also hurt the cause of democracy in India. The License Raj (the elaborate licenses and regulations to set up a business in India) hurt India tremendously in the global economy. Nehru started the License Raj when it was needed in a very infant India, but during Indira’s time in office, India could’ve become a major global force. Indira should've cut down on the red tape and corruption, not make it worse. The protectionist policies kept India from innovation, and severely limited the number of legal tax-paying businesses in the country. India is only now recovering from the protectionist policies of that time.

sean mcdaniel

more enlightened attitudes from sheel:

"Anyway, back to the power-hungry bitch that is Indira Gandhi"

as elvis costello might ask...what's so funny about peace love and understanding?

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